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Atheistic pitfalls, self deification, and the gravitational constant of the universe

July 12, 2006

Every time I get into an argument with an atheist about something as deep as the existence of a god, the same thing happens over and over again.

250px-q_portrait.jpgSome will say it’s about time I used a Star Trek quote, so here it goes. A decent summation of an atheist’s argument, when they get backed into a philisophical or scientific corner, is very similar to a statement made by a certain entity known as Q. In the episode “Deja Q” (man, I’m a geek), Q was forced to become human as a punishment. The crew of the Enterprise, which unfortunately had to house him, was trying to figure out a way to keep a moon from hitting the planet it orbited. Q was attempting to help LaForge come up with a solution. Q simply looked at a computer screen and said “It’s simple. Just change the gravitational constant of the universe.” Maybe Q could’ve done that if he still had his powers, but LaForge was just a mere human and didn’t have that capability. He did, however, figure out a way to extend the warp field around the moon to change the moon’s gravitational constant, rather than changing it for the entire universe.

Now, for most of you, that little synopsis probably didn’t make much sense. You’re probably saying “Mike, you lost me at gravitational constant.” Or, for the less cultured of you out there, you’re probably saying “Mike, you lost me at Star Trek.” However, the discussion between Q and LaForge is exactly what happens between an atheist and a Christian once they get down to the nitty-gritty.

Both sides of the argument can be in complete agreement on scientific theory all of the way up to the origin of the universe. Even on sticking points, like evolution, you can have an honest scientific discussion about the theory without mentioning religion. Unless, of course, the atheist treats Darwinian evolutionary THEORY like a Catholic treats an ex cathedra statement from the Pope. It all falls apart, though, when you get to where all of “this” came from.

In the “Big Bang,” which is the most well known origin theory, all matter within the universe was condensed into a single point in space under infinite pressure. Eventually, it exploded, giving rise to forces, subatomic particles, atoms, etc. The atheist should agree that that is a scientifically plausible theory. Then the big question enters: where did all of that matter come from? It is a scientific law that matter cannot be created or destroyed. Even if the matter was converted into energy, there still needs to be an explanation about where the energy came from.

So, either the matter was always there, or some higher being had a hand in it all. Notice, that is the true Intelligent Design theory. Too often the “Christian God” is inserted into it, and when that happens atheists shut their ears off and call you a fundamentalist whacko. In any event, in every single one of my conversations that I’ve had about this subject, the atheist was more willing to accept that the matter was just always there rather than accept the possibility that that, in fact, is scientifically impossible.

Enter Q. When Q was trying to figure out a near impossible problem, his first reaction was to go AGAINST all scientific theory and laws to answer the question. LaForge, however, USED scientific theory and law to come up with a solution. The exact same thing applies in the origin of the universe argument. The Christian (or theist) ends up being the party that is much more willing to accept scientific theory and law to come to his conclusion. The atheist, on the other hand, is essentially making the argument that something which is considered scientific law is wrong. For me personally, I believe that the scinetific laws were written by God, in order for us to better understand his presence and his work in the universe. The atheist is willing to throw out the very thing he based his argument upon, leaving diametrically opposed voids in his wake (matter can never be created or destroyed, except for that one time). The former keeps scientific theory and law where they are. The latter uses science and then contradicts it, leaving the science meaningless.

In the end, atheism is really the ultimate form of selfishness. An atheist does not want to accept that there is a form or truth higher than their own perception or rational thought. Since we are the only rational beings (that we know of) in the universe, then we, as humans, are the highest form of intelligence. To me, that is the ultimate form of self deification: believing that nothing can exist outside of the realm of your own thought and perception. There can be no God because I am the highest form in the universe.

Those who are Christian should be very comforted. Christ’s sacrifice stays the same thoughout all of time. God stays the same throughout all of time. For the atheist, your whole world view and belief can crumble in a day. One day you think the world is flat, the next day a new scientific breakthrough shows the world is round. Christians should find great solace in the ever-consistent love of God.

13 comments

  1. I love the last paragraph!! How true. God’s laws and love, and everything else he’s stated remains true forever. It’s our perceptions or interpretations of those things that have been wrong on occasion. Good job writing!


  2. Can I just say I love reading your posts AS? Have you ever written a paper about the evidence of God without using Relgion or the Bible as a source?


  3. I find this quite a laughable post to be honest. You clearly have not spoken with many Atheists. You say our argument falls apart once you get down to the big bang? Well the most obvious answer anybody could give to where that energy came from is simply “We don’t know yet”.

    See I can easily accept the answer that we do not yet know, I don’t need to assume some all powerful entity did it. We don’t have all the answers and I doubt we ever will have all the answers. That doesn’t mean I need to make up answers.

    Also you mention how a new breakthrough can shatter our world view. Well not really. As I said earlier, I can accept that we don’t know everything. If some major breakthrough happens which disproves some fundamental law I would find it incredibly facinating and exciting.


  4. The person who posted before me should realize that we view him more as an agnostic and not as an atheist

    An Agnostic believes that the existence of God, gods, or deities—is unknown, inherently unknowable, or incoherent.

    An Atheist is someone who believes that deities do not exist, and excludes those who hold no position on the question (see agnostics and other non-theists). In other words, an “atheist” can be defined as either:
    A person who does not believe that at least one god exists; or
    A person who has a positive belief that no god or gods exist.

    To say that god doesn’t exist would be dumb since no one really knows. To say that you think God does exist, based on the scienctific information that we have collected about the universe, is very reasonable.


  5. Munkey said: To say that god doesn’t exist would be dumb since no one really knows. To say that you think God does exist, based on the scienctific information that we have collected about the universe, is very reasonable.

    See I really do believe that there is no god/s. I see them akin to Leprechauns. Do you believe in Leprechauns? Probably not, it is just a myth/folk lore. The Christian God is exactly the same thing. The only difference is number of people who believe in the Christian God compared to Leprechauns.


  6. The problem is, if God is the ultimate cause of the universe, then He requires an even greater cause and you lead into infinite regress. Now, if you say it’s beyond fathom, that’s okay, but it’s far less foolish to say we just don’t know where the matter for the universe came from.

    Atheism is the only remotely intellectually honest position here.


  7. MIKE RESPONDS

    Thanks for the comment, Ken! I hope you found my post at least somewhat stimulating.

    I have heard the infinite regress argument before, but, again, if you want to make that argument, atheism would have the same hole in it. If matter cannot be created or destroyed, yet it has just always been here, doesn’t that lead to the same infinite regress you complain of? The only way out of it is to say that science, as we know it, is wrong, yet the argument is built using that admittedly flawed science as a foundation.

    Also, as a side note, saying it is beyond fathom is really an agnostic point of view, not an atheistic one. I would assume you meant that agnosticism is the only remotely intellectually honest position here.

    I hope that maybe you’ll stumble upon my response some day.


  8. You guys don’t really know what agnostic and athiest mean.

    Agnosticism concerns the possibility of knowing god existence. Atheism concerns belief in gods existence. They are tow separate things.

    Atheism is not ‘I believe no god exists.’ It is ‘I don’t believe god exists.’ What you guys are calling agnosticism is atheism. A-theism simply means ‘without belief of god.’ Certainly, the positive ‘I believe god can’t exist’ claim is included within that, but that is only a small subset of atheism.

    Look, it’s really simple. Theist believes in god, right? An a-theist is the opposite of theist, someone who doesn’t positively believe in god. This includes doubt and the positive assertion that god does not exist. You are one or the other. ‘Do you believe in god’ is a yes or no question.
    Gnosticism is the position that god is ultimately knowable by humans. Agnosticism is the position that god is not knowable by humans (i.e. it’s impossible for humans relying on natural senses to know the supernatural.) Again, you are one or the other. You either believe it’s possible to know, or it isn’t.
    You are either a theist or an atheist, and you are either a gnostic or an agnostic. You are one of both, one is not a substitute for the other.

    You can be:
    Gnostic theist – I believe in god and his name is Jehovah (or whoever)
    Agnostic theist – I believe in god but it is impossible for me to learn anything about him
    Gnostic atheist – I believe no god exists because if one did, we would know about it
    Agnostic atheist – I doubt god exists because I have seen no evidence for it, but ultimately it is impossible to disprove (my personal position)


  9. ‘Do you believe in god?’
    ‘I don’t know’
    This is an atheistic statement. You don’t positively believe in god (theist).


  10. MIKE RESPONDS

    Thanks for the comment, Jason!

    I read it through, and I’m not entirely sure what you are getting at. I think you are creating distinctions without differences, but that may just be because I’m not following your train of thought. I think “Belief in God” can be more effectively explained as a spectrum than a set of classifications. Belief in God and believing God doesn’t exist are at the polar ends, but in order to “believe” anything there has to be some form of obtainable knowledge that you hold to reach your conclusion. Everything else in between is varying shades of uncertainty or agnosticism.

    Any “belief” in God is inherently gnostic, because to have a gnostic view is to believe that knowledge of a subject (in this case, the existence of a god or gods) is not only obtainable, but has already been obtained by you or others. You can further break that down into theism and deism, where theists believe that knowledge comes from or is supplemented by divine revelation and deists reject divine revelation while relying solely on logic and observation. So, any such belief in God is by its very nature gnostic and definitive.

    However, as soon as doubt is thrown in, that’s when you venture into agnosticism. Whether you believe knowledge is impossible to obtain or that the knowledge is simply unknown at this time, it all falls under agnosticism. Saying something is unknown or impossible to know inherently means that your belief is not definitive. Whether you lean one way or another in your agnosticism is irrelevant because your ultimate conclusion is that you don’t know or that is impossible to know one way or the other.

    Atheism, like theism, is definitive and relies upon having knowledge that God doesn’t exist (whatever knowledge that may be). So, to “believe” God doesn’t exist, you have to have some form of knowledge to come to that conclusion. Atheism is therefore just as gnostic as theism, just in the opposite direction where you believe that the knowledge that God doesn’t exist is obtainable or has already been obtained by you or someone else.

    So, saying “I don’t know” to the question about belief in a God is agnostic. You are not positively stating that you believe in God (theist or deist), but you are not positively saying you don’t believe in God either (atheist).

    That all aside, it is important to get agreement on basic definitions in any discussion. How can you discuss something if everyone is talking about something different, right?

    Anyway, thanks again for the comment and your personal insight. It always benefits others to have a well thought out discussion on any subject.


  11. Hello from a fellow geek who found you looking for a photo of Q for one of my own wordpress posts.

    I suggest that do not understand the creation of the universe any better than an atheist, that “God” is just your word for the unknown.

    The difference is, you think you know more because you have a label.

    I may be wrong, so I ask you: How did God create the Universe, exactly?

    You see, we are both in the dark, but the atheist is more prone to keep looking for answers because he accepts the reality of his lack of knowledge.


    • MIKE RESONDS:

      Fellow geeks are ALWAYS welcome!

      Well, to start off at the bottom, I don’t think we are using the term “atheist” the same way. To me, an atheist is just as definitive as a theist but on the other side of the spectrum. Suggesting you don’t have an answer (whether you are looking or not) seems more like an agnostic approach. Can’t discuss something unless your on the same page with how you view the terms, right?

      You are right that, using human perception, the “how” is a tricky subject, particularly in relation to creation of matter. However, I’m led to believe what I do (we’ll just start off by saying that there is an “intelligent designer” rather than a specific God) because of science. When looking at how this universe works, there is an order to things. Each building block is required for the next step, and just looking at cellular biology is enough to make your head spin in regards to how every piece really needs to be there for the whole to function, and those pieces are too many to count. That order really points to something/someone establishing that order. So, to me, science itself is about the discovery of the order of the universe, and our understanding may change, but the order is there whether we see it/understand it or not.

      Removing any presence of a higher entity, you are left with the proposition that scientific order is, in fact, random. To me, that is self contradictory. You end up using scientific laws to explain things, but then have to explain why the scientific law doesn’t apply in the first instance. It’s like using science to disprove itself (like Q changing science to solve a problem). There is still that disconnect where something outside of scientific law and our understanding (i.e., something like the origin of matter) gave rise to our scientific law and understanding (i.e., matter cannot be created or destroyed). You either are left with two contradictory notions or you are forced to throw out our current understanding. That aside, your whole world view can change at any given moment when a new scientific discovery is made since human understanding is, in essence, the highest we can go up the existential food chain. The opposite is true with a theistic viewpoint, because the truth is there whether you see it or not, and we just have to find it.

      So, about the how, you have to accept one premise to accept the next one. Saying there is something beyond human understanding needs to be agreed upon before you can accept that the how is likewise beyond human understanding.

      It isn’t really about thinking I know more. An atheist and a theist has the same science in front of them, it’s just their conclusions that are different. And, as a scientist, I am always striving to learn more about the beauty of the universe. It just so happens that the more we discover, the more order there is staring you right in the face.

      But I digress ;)

      Thanks for the comment, and feel free to stop by any time!


  12. “You see, we are both in the dark, but the atheist is more prone to keep looking for answers because he accepts the reality of his lack of knowledge.”

    You have just made the mistake of using a hasty generalization. You made the implication that theists do not accept the reality of their own lack of knowledge which is a lie. There are many Christians out there who also claim that they do not have all of the answers. In fact, any intelligent Christian would have to admit that they do not have all the answers because the Bible doesn’t divulge every answer to every one of life’s riddles, nor does God directly open our minds to the knowledge of everything. Also, the Bible teaches us to be humble so a Christian should not even begin to think that they have all the answers or are better than anybody else. You see, many Atheists make these hasty generalizations all the time when their minds are clouded by fear and resentment and their ignorance of Biblical Doctrine manifests itself.

    We are not told “how God did it”. That is why we have science, the study of the creation, and it is not the purpose of science to take God’s place.



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